Mr. O, I mentioned I would put a video together, but after starting to write out the notes, I found that writing would be a good way to go. I hope you don’t mind the change in what I said I would do. My comments are in bold:
Hello Pastor. I have some concerns regarding this video presentation and I am hoping you can help me understand. First of all, I agree with everything you have presented as far as the sources you have quoted. My concern is, I am afraid I am not understanding your interpretation of the material you have conveyed.
Thank you so much. If you could help, I would request that you go through the video again, pointing out precisely where I have misconstrued the words I have read.
I know the angels play a very important role in the ministration of God’s government. God would not have created them if they did not have something important to do. By the same token, He created each and every one of us with something very important for us to do. But if we did not accomplish what He had in mind for us, that task would get accomplished with or without us.
Here we have a bit of a different understanding. “To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do.” DA 22.1
There was also only one being who could go into the counsels of the Father. There’s only one of you. There’s only one Daniel. There was only one Eve. As you may be able to see, this list could go on.
Now, I have a concern regarding God’s divine attributes, namely, His omnipresence and His all-knowing divine attribute. After watching your video and reading your articles on the ministry of angels I am a bit skeptical on whether I am misunderstanding or you are misinterpreting the facts presented. Please do not be offended by my line of questioning. I am just seeking clarification.
Not offended at all. If you have read everything from here: https://www.revelationwithdaniel.com/angel-studies-with-daniel-mesa/ please let me know what has been pieced together from word studies that have come across as confusing. What are the facts presented that have been misunderstood? I’d like clarification. Thank you.
It appears you are saying that God is not truly omnipresent. According to you, to say that He is literally and physically everywhere is spiritualism. The way that God is present everywhere is by His ministering angels reporting everything that goes on everywhere. This would include every square inch of the universe. But God does not literally see everything, He only sees through the eyes of His angels.
God truly is omnipresent, but by His Spirit. The original fundamental principles say just that. =) Yes, to say He is everywhere, is wrong. Please consider: “If God is an essence pervading all nature, then He dwells in all men; and in order to attain holiness, man has only to develop the power that is within him” (8T 291.3). Please read that section in context, and you’ll find that God is not everywhere.
Were we to ask Christ where God was, He’d say:
- Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
- Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
- Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
- Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
- Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
- Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
- Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
- Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
- Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
- Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
- Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
- Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
- Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
- Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
- Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
- Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Jesus never said that His Father is everywhere. If God were everywhere, what would happen to us sinners? Wouldn’t we all be destroyed?
If God were everywhere, why go to Heaven? God is already here. What could Jesus have meant in John 14:1-3?
You ask later in this message if we are misunderstanding Jeremiah 23:24. I would ask, do we make a doctrine based on one or two Scripture texts? Where are the other verses that state such a thing? Psalm 139? No, we can’t use that section—as it doesn’t say that God is everywhere. It says He knows everything.
Notice what James White said (the one who slept right next to Ellen), “God is everywhere by virtue of his omniscience” (PERGO 3.5). His wife seemed to agree, not disagree.
You also imply that God does not literally know everything. According to your model of Jacob’s latter, angels are the one carrying tidings to Him so He will be informed of prayers, behaviors, and all detailed records they carry.
I believe that God knows everything. I also know that one of the ways He has revealed to us that He knows everything is through the network of angels that He has set up. In the coming judgment, angels will be able to testify as witnesses that they were involved in all matters of our salvation with at least two or three witnesses.
What did EGW mean when she wrote, “A report is borne to heaven of every successful effort on our part to dispel the darkness and to spread abroad the knowledge of Christ. As the deed is recounted before the Father, joy thrills through all the heavenly host” (AA 153.3). Is that deed unnecessarily recounted? Are we to conclude that the angels are just going through empty motions in telling the story to the Father? No, the deed is recounted before the Father for His pleasure, I’m sure, but the other “heavenly host” would not have known as the Father had, so it is recounted as a witness and a praise.
According to Webster’s 1828, recount means, “To relate in detail; to recite; to tell or narrate the particulars; to rehearse” (http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/recount).
So pastor, are you saying that without the angels God would not know our prayer petitions? How then would He know what we are praying for even before we pray for it. Mat 6:8 Surely angels cannot anticipate our prayers before we pray. How is God aware of the most insignificant things unless an Angel was to report it to Him? Mat 10:29
What I have copied and pasted from EGW’s writings is found here:
It seems to me that what she has described there is that God knows/hears our prayers through the ministration of angels that ascend and descend because of what He has done through His only begotten.
Are we misunderstanding the bible when it says that God fills all heaven and earth? Jer 23:24
Is the term “Omnipresent” misleading in SOP and scriptures when in reality it is describing how God accomplishes is presence throughout the universe by way of His angels?
If God “fills” heaven and earth as it seems like you are saying that Jeremiah 23:24 means, then God really is an “essence pervading all nature” (MH 428.2) and we must now rethink what EGW has said, right? I don’t think so. It seems to me that the verse is saying that God is filling all heaven and earth, but how? Does He leave Heaven every time someone prays? Or is He already everywhere so the angels are just going through the motions of what is already known, and their service is just for show? Is the angelic ministry a metaphor?
I can only say that perhaps you are like I have been. I used to believe that God was everywhere, because He’s omnipresent. Now I am sure that God is in Heaven, and omnipresent by His Spirit—and the HOW of that is part of what I have been interested in, and it seems that the how is described through the ministration of those who serve Him—His angels (heavenly intelligences), Son, followers on earth (earthly intelligences), etc.
When Christ said I will send you a comforter, was He really saying that His angels would represent His presence? Why then did EGW say that He was representing Himself devoid of His physical form, that the Holy Spirit was His omnipresent self?
What did Christ mean when He said that He would “send” a comforter? Have you read the first paragraph of Early Writings page 39 recently? If not, please slowly absorb what is being said here:
“I have seen the tender love that God has for His people, and it is very great. I saw angels over the saints with their wings spread about them. Each saint had an attending angel. If the saints wept through discouragement, or were in danger, the angels that ever attended them would fly quickly upward to carry the tidings, and the angels in the city would cease to sing. Then Jesus would commission another angel to descend to encourage, watch over, and try to keep them from going out of the narrow path; but if they did not take heed to the watchful care of these angels, and would not be comforted by them, but continued to go astray, the angels would look sad and weep. They would bear the tidings upward, and all the angels in the city would weep, and then with a loud voice say, “Amen.” But if the saints fixed their eyes upon the prize before them and glorified God by praising Him, then the angels would bear the glad tidings to the city, and the angels in the city would touch their golden harps and sing with a loud voice, “Alleluia!” and the heavenly arches would ring with their lovely songs” (EW 39.1).
Also, what did Christ mean when, after being a great comfort to John on the isle of Patmos through His messages, that He said, “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches” (Revelation 22:16).
John could have said, ‘You mean… You didn’t come to me!?’ Well, Jesus was there—through His Spirit. How? Through the angel, His angel, that He had sent.
I apologize for these questions, but I am pretty confused right now. Thank you.
I want to assure you, I am not confused. This makes very good sense.
Please take serious time to study and pray about these things before counting me as one that has gone astray into confusion. God has light that is shining, and as it was stated so perfectly, “they will have to unlearn much that they have learned, and this they will find very difficult to do” (CT 458.3).